1 00:00:09,378 --> 00:00:12,729 ♪ People say I'm no good 2 00:00:15,732 --> 00:00:17,429 - Through the ages, philosophers and theologians 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,083 have debated the nature of evil. 4 00:00:21,390 --> 00:00:23,392 Is it a physical force? 5 00:00:23,522 --> 00:00:27,178 Can it be measured, understood, predicted, or altered? 6 00:00:27,309 --> 00:00:29,920 Is evil a cause and effect or is it 7 00:00:30,051 --> 00:00:31,835 simply the absence of good? 8 00:00:33,054 --> 00:00:34,968 On this broadcast, we come face to face 9 00:00:35,099 --> 00:00:36,361 with a man that many say inspired 10 00:00:36,492 --> 00:00:39,103 and committed the crime of the century. 11 00:00:39,234 --> 00:00:41,062 His name is Charles Manson. 12 00:00:50,288 --> 00:00:53,900 - Benwood-McMechen sits right along the Ohio River. 13 00:00:54,031 --> 00:00:56,773 It's one of those places where you were 14 00:00:56,903 --> 00:01:01,560 a coal miner, a railroad worker or a steel worker 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,998 and everybody seemed to get along real well. 16 00:01:05,129 --> 00:01:07,262 It was one of those situations 17 00:01:07,392 --> 00:01:09,177 where you didn't lock your house. 18 00:01:09,307 --> 00:01:13,746 There was a lotta camaraderie there and it was very cordial. 19 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:16,749 - McMechan, West Virginia. 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:19,926 It's one the many little mill and mining towns 21 00:01:20,057 --> 00:01:22,886 that cling to hills along the Ohio River. 22 00:01:28,326 --> 00:01:30,546 - McMechen was a small, small town. 23 00:01:30,676 --> 00:01:32,765 Everybody knew everybody, everybody's mother knew you. 24 00:01:35,420 --> 00:01:38,684 Charles, he was a first grader 25 00:01:41,470 --> 00:01:43,254 and he came to live with his grandmother. 26 00:01:45,735 --> 00:01:48,259 - Most people here don't remember Charles Manson, 27 00:01:48,390 --> 00:01:50,174 but this was the closest thing he had 28 00:01:50,305 --> 00:01:51,784 to a hometown when he was growing up. 29 00:01:53,656 --> 00:01:55,701 He lived with an aunt and uncle in this house. 30 00:01:57,138 --> 00:01:58,530 School records in McMechen show 31 00:01:58,661 --> 00:02:00,445 Manson was an average student 32 00:02:00,576 --> 00:02:02,491 in the second, third, and fourth grades. 33 00:02:04,057 --> 00:02:08,149 - This area of Benwood-McMechen was quite unique. 34 00:02:09,324 --> 00:02:11,543 There was five grocery stores 35 00:02:13,502 --> 00:02:17,375 and there were four churches 36 00:02:19,899 --> 00:02:21,249 and 32 bars. 37 00:02:25,601 --> 00:02:26,819 But it was a nice town to grow up in. 38 00:02:28,604 --> 00:02:29,909 You got a milk man delivered your milk 39 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,174 and the grocery store delivered your groceries. 40 00:02:33,304 --> 00:02:34,218 But it was a, 41 00:02:35,959 --> 00:02:37,830 it was a good community. 42 00:02:44,489 --> 00:02:45,664 In no way did it reflect 43 00:02:49,277 --> 00:02:50,234 the 44 00:02:51,975 --> 00:02:54,543 outcome of a person like Charles Manson. 45 00:02:57,459 --> 00:02:59,678 Of course, we didn't know then who he was 46 00:02:59,809 --> 00:03:02,768 nor did we know what he would become. 47 00:03:57,388 --> 00:03:58,563 - I'd have to say 48 00:04:01,131 --> 00:04:05,004 when a child is treated the way he was, you're doomed. 49 00:04:06,615 --> 00:04:08,921 I don't think you stand much of a chance. 50 00:04:09,052 --> 00:04:11,837 I mean, he could've gone a different way. 51 00:04:11,968 --> 00:04:15,363 I don't know, I guess the cards didn't fall that way. 52 00:04:15,493 --> 00:04:19,280 But he wasn't what I would call a bad person. 53 00:04:20,933 --> 00:04:24,589 He was a person who might have tried to be better. 54 00:04:29,072 --> 00:04:30,116 But it was hard. 55 00:04:35,078 --> 00:04:36,688 They went to church here at the Nazarene Church 56 00:04:36,819 --> 00:04:39,474 here in McMechen, which is a small church. 57 00:04:43,608 --> 00:04:46,307 And I was friends with his aunt and uncle and grandmother. 58 00:05:18,817 --> 00:05:21,864 His uncle's name was Bill, his aunt was Glenna, 59 00:05:21,994 --> 00:05:23,387 and they all worked for the BandO, 60 00:05:23,518 --> 00:05:24,997 which was a very good job to have. 61 00:05:25,128 --> 00:05:27,826 It was really the highest paid in the city. 62 00:05:35,791 --> 00:05:36,748 They were nice people, they really were, 63 00:05:36,879 --> 00:05:39,795 A lot of very talented musically 64 00:05:39,925 --> 00:05:43,668 and Mrs. Maddox, that's Charles' grandmother, 65 00:05:43,799 --> 00:05:46,541 who was just a wonderful, wonderful woman. 66 00:05:46,671 --> 00:05:50,588 I mean, I can't imagine anyone who didn't really love her. 67 00:05:50,719 --> 00:05:53,374 She was such a sweet, good person, yeah. 68 00:05:55,114 --> 00:05:56,638 - My grandma was a mountain girl 69 00:05:56,768 --> 00:05:58,857 from Kentucky, up in the mountains, 70 00:05:58,988 --> 00:06:02,861 and she never did drink or smoke or cuss or lie. 71 00:06:02,992 --> 00:06:05,081 She used to cook for the Salvation Army 72 00:06:05,211 --> 00:06:06,691 and she was a human being. 73 00:06:09,477 --> 00:06:10,565 A good one. 74 00:06:10,695 --> 00:06:12,741 - She lived her faith 75 00:06:12,871 --> 00:06:16,092 and she kinda led people to her way of thinking, 76 00:06:16,222 --> 00:06:20,879 which was a good way of thinking, but I don't know 77 00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:24,709 if Charles' mother wanted to adhere to that. 78 00:06:26,755 --> 00:06:27,843 She seemed to love a good time, 79 00:06:27,973 --> 00:06:30,889 a little bit of partying, and there was, 80 00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:33,501 there was mention of that from time to time. 81 00:06:36,155 --> 00:06:38,331 - The Nazarene Church had several 82 00:06:38,462 --> 00:06:40,769 edicts for his young people. 83 00:06:40,899 --> 00:06:44,642 They included: you had to go to church every Sunday, 84 00:06:44,773 --> 00:06:46,775 you had to obey your parents, 85 00:06:46,905 --> 00:06:49,821 no going to the movies, no sinful dancing. 86 00:06:49,952 --> 00:06:52,433 And above all, you could not become over familiar 87 00:06:52,563 --> 00:06:54,043 with members of the opposite sex. 88 00:06:59,788 --> 00:07:01,746 There was a lot of rebellion, 89 00:07:03,792 --> 00:07:05,750 as there always has been with young people 90 00:07:05,881 --> 00:07:09,058 growing up under fundamentalist church rules, 91 00:07:09,188 --> 00:07:13,062 but Charlie's mother Kathleen was really the exception 92 00:07:13,192 --> 00:07:17,196 in that she would actually dare to put up her hair, 93 00:07:17,327 --> 00:07:20,765 sneak into a short dress that might leave her arms bare, 94 00:07:20,896 --> 00:07:25,596 which was just a carnal act, and go out to dance. 95 00:07:28,643 --> 00:07:31,559 But Ashland was too small. 96 00:07:31,689 --> 00:07:33,038 If you tried to dance or if you even 97 00:07:33,169 --> 00:07:35,650 smiled at a boy, mama would hear about it. 98 00:07:37,347 --> 00:07:38,914 So, she would sneak across the river 99 00:07:39,044 --> 00:07:40,698 to try to get away from her mother 100 00:07:40,829 --> 00:07:44,136 and just have what she considered innocent fun, dancing. 101 00:07:46,661 --> 00:07:49,794 Once she came back home pregnant, she was pretty much 102 00:07:49,925 --> 00:07:51,579 held up as an example to the other kids. 103 00:07:51,709 --> 00:07:53,363 "See? You don't follow the rules, 104 00:07:53,494 --> 00:07:54,712 "this is gonna happen to you." 105 00:08:00,109 --> 00:08:03,765 Charles Manson was not, as he likes to claim, 106 00:08:03,895 --> 00:08:07,899 an illegitimate baby who was known as No Name 107 00:08:08,030 --> 00:08:10,815 because there was some doubt as to who was his father. 108 00:08:10,946 --> 00:08:14,036 It was always known that his biological father 109 00:08:14,166 --> 00:08:16,691 was a man named Colonel Scott. 110 00:08:16,821 --> 00:08:20,521 Not a military man, an older man, a married man 111 00:08:20,651 --> 00:08:22,392 who'd pretty much seduced Charlie's 112 00:08:22,523 --> 00:08:24,220 teenage mother at a dance hall. 113 00:08:28,746 --> 00:08:31,270 We don't know much about William Manson, 114 00:08:31,401 --> 00:08:33,403 but he was somebody that apparently 115 00:08:33,534 --> 00:08:36,798 had also met Kathleen at the dance halls. 116 00:08:38,364 --> 00:08:41,411 He married her and he went into the marriage well aware 117 00:08:41,542 --> 00:08:43,761 that his wife was pregnant with another man's child. 118 00:08:50,072 --> 00:08:53,292 Ultimately, he was named Charles Milles Manson in honor of 119 00:08:53,423 --> 00:08:56,687 his deceased grandfather, Charles Milles Maddox. 120 00:08:58,515 --> 00:09:01,605 For Manson, as a child, he was never living 121 00:09:01,736 --> 00:09:03,825 in any one place for too long. 122 00:09:03,955 --> 00:09:06,828 His mother moved too much for that. 123 00:09:06,958 --> 00:09:08,786 For the first four and a half years of his life, 124 00:09:08,917 --> 00:09:13,835 Charlie mostly lived in a series of homes and apartments 125 00:09:13,965 --> 00:09:16,838 stretching from Cincinnati in Ohio all the way 126 00:09:16,968 --> 00:09:19,841 to McMechen with Ashland, Kentucky in between. 127 00:09:19,971 --> 00:09:23,671 And when his Uncle Bill and Aunt Glenna 128 00:09:23,801 --> 00:09:26,369 lived in Charleston, West Virginia, 129 00:09:28,153 --> 00:09:31,679 sometimes Charlie and his mother would live with them. 130 00:09:31,809 --> 00:09:34,943 So, it was pretty much a move around 131 00:09:35,073 --> 00:09:36,422 life for the little boy. 132 00:09:36,553 --> 00:09:39,948 The constant in it, besides his mother, 133 00:09:40,078 --> 00:09:44,126 was his grandmother, who would always be nearby. 134 00:09:44,256 --> 00:09:47,433 - Most of us work hard to provide our homes 135 00:09:47,564 --> 00:09:50,611 with every possible comfort for our children. 136 00:09:52,264 --> 00:09:55,833 We safeguard their health, we strive to put before them 137 00:09:55,964 --> 00:10:00,098 good examples of moral living, of manners and deportment. 138 00:10:00,229 --> 00:10:02,535 - Charlie's grandmother believed that 139 00:10:02,666 --> 00:10:06,496 if she did not bring her children up in the right way, 140 00:10:06,627 --> 00:10:09,847 they were not only going to hell, but she would, too, 141 00:10:09,978 --> 00:10:11,762 because she would've let down the Lord. 142 00:10:14,417 --> 00:10:16,811 Particularly because her husband had died, 143 00:10:16,941 --> 00:10:19,770 she was worried about her two youngest children, 144 00:10:19,901 --> 00:10:24,340 Luther and Kathleen, who she believed were growing up 145 00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:29,040 without a father's influence and therefore had tendencies. 146 00:10:29,171 --> 00:10:31,521 The last game is over, the last movie out. 147 00:10:31,652 --> 00:10:34,306 The American citizen has a final alterative to home. 148 00:10:34,437 --> 00:10:38,006 In another currently flourishing institution. The night club. 149 00:10:38,136 --> 00:10:40,748 - During the first few years of Charlie's life, 150 00:10:40,878 --> 00:10:43,533 even when Kathleen was still married, 151 00:10:43,664 --> 00:10:48,103 she began going out with her brother Luther and his friends 152 00:10:48,233 --> 00:10:51,454 and she was not behaving in the way that 153 00:10:51,584 --> 00:10:54,457 a mother with a child was supposed to behave. 154 00:10:54,587 --> 00:10:56,589 Her marriage to William Manson didn't 155 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,201 last that long, about two and a half years. 156 00:10:59,331 --> 00:11:03,901 He left her and cited that Kathleen was unfaithful, 157 00:11:04,859 --> 00:11:06,904 she was gone most of the time, 158 00:11:07,035 --> 00:11:10,038 and he made very clear in the divorce decree 159 00:11:10,168 --> 00:11:13,345 that there had been no issue from their marriage, 160 00:11:13,476 --> 00:11:18,002 meaning that he said in court Charlie was not his child. 161 00:11:18,133 --> 00:11:20,526 That meant he didn't have to pay child support. 162 00:11:27,098 --> 00:11:27,751 When you were a boy, 163 00:11:27,882 --> 00:11:28,491 did you love your mother? 164 00:11:30,928 --> 00:11:32,713 - I didn't know what that was. 165 00:11:38,544 --> 00:11:42,070 - When Charlie was about four and a half years old, 166 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,770 Kathleen and her brother Luther got a little bit wilder. 167 00:11:48,511 --> 00:11:51,862 The night came when Kathleen and Luther's girlfriend, Julia, 168 00:11:53,429 --> 00:11:54,822 decided to go out on the town a little bit. 169 00:11:56,562 --> 00:12:00,479 The ladies go out to a club and there they meet a gentleman 170 00:12:00,610 --> 00:12:03,221 and decided this guy had money and they wanted some of it. 171 00:12:05,049 --> 00:12:07,443 They went to a phone and called up Luther. 172 00:12:10,098 --> 00:12:12,796 Luther told them, "Get the guy in his car 173 00:12:12,927 --> 00:12:16,234 "and drive to this filling station on the edge of town. 174 00:12:16,365 --> 00:12:18,149 "I will be waiting there." 175 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,936 Luther shows up, he has in his possession 176 00:12:22,066 --> 00:12:24,460 a ketchup bottle filled with salt, 177 00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:27,028 which he tries to stick in the guy's back and say, 178 00:12:27,158 --> 00:12:29,639 "This is a gun, I've got you covered. . 179 00:12:29,770 --> 00:12:31,119 "Give me your money." 180 00:12:31,249 --> 00:12:35,471 And the guy said, "It's a bottle, it's not a gun." 181 00:12:35,601 --> 00:12:39,040 At which point, Luther walloped him over the head with it 182 00:12:39,170 --> 00:12:41,433 and they grabbed the guy's wallet, 183 00:12:41,564 --> 00:12:44,001 found they'd made about 20 bucks in the deal, 184 00:12:44,132 --> 00:12:46,612 and drove off in his stolen car. 185 00:12:46,743 --> 00:12:48,963 The local papers think it's the funniest thing 186 00:12:49,093 --> 00:12:50,965 they've ever had to write about 187 00:12:51,095 --> 00:12:54,272 and they start writing about the Ketchup Bottle Bandits. 188 00:12:54,403 --> 00:12:56,971 Because Luther assaulted the man, 189 00:12:57,101 --> 00:12:59,060 hit him over the head with a ketchup bottle, 190 00:12:59,190 --> 00:13:02,977 he gets 10 years in the Moundsville State Prison. 191 00:13:03,107 --> 00:13:05,936 Kathleen got five years. 192 00:13:06,067 --> 00:13:08,112 And they are sent off to one of the most 193 00:13:08,243 --> 00:13:12,203 draconian prisons in the entire United States. 194 00:13:12,334 --> 00:13:14,162 And there's little four and a half year old Charlie. 195 00:13:14,292 --> 00:13:16,294 What's to become of him? 196 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,828 ♪ Come all you West Virginia gals ♪ 197 00:13:27,958 --> 00:13:30,178 ♪ And listen to the noise 198 00:13:30,308 --> 00:13:34,138 ♪ Don't you court these West Virginia boys ♪ 199 00:13:34,269 --> 00:13:38,273 ♪ If you do, your fortune will be ♪ 200 00:13:38,403 --> 00:13:42,233 ♪ Cornbread and bacon, you will see ♪ 201 00:13:42,364 --> 00:13:44,888 ♪ Cornbread and bacon 202 00:13:45,019 --> 00:13:48,370 - We know that Charlie is not quite five years old 203 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:50,981 when his mother went to prison and the decision 204 00:13:51,112 --> 00:13:52,853 had to be made: where is he gonna live? 205 00:13:54,637 --> 00:13:58,336 And because the jail in Moundsville was so close to McMechen 206 00:13:58,467 --> 00:14:02,079 where his uncle and aunt and their daughter, Joanne, lived, 207 00:14:02,210 --> 00:14:04,038 the decision was made that Charlie would 208 00:14:04,168 --> 00:14:06,344 live permanently in McMechen during 209 00:14:06,475 --> 00:14:08,346 the five years of his mother's prison term 210 00:14:08,477 --> 00:14:10,914 and they could see where he went from there. 211 00:14:22,665 --> 00:14:24,885 Almost as soon as Charlie is there, 212 00:14:25,015 --> 00:14:28,018 and he's had some explanation from his grandmother, 213 00:14:28,149 --> 00:14:30,891 "Mama made a mistake, she's gonna be living in a place 214 00:14:31,021 --> 00:14:34,982 "for a few years but you're gonna see her all the time," 215 00:14:35,112 --> 00:14:38,289 Uncle Bill, a stern disciplinarian 216 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:40,726 who believed that little boys, even if they're 217 00:14:40,857 --> 00:14:43,512 just four or four and a half, do not cry, 218 00:14:43,642 --> 00:14:45,906 they do not whimper, they are tough, 219 00:14:47,124 --> 00:14:49,561 took the child to Moundsville. 220 00:15:00,094 --> 00:15:01,617 - It's been said that if Charles Manson 221 00:15:01,747 --> 00:15:04,402 has any roots at all, they are in the penal system-- 222 00:15:04,533 --> 00:15:06,013 - Well, one of my first recollections 223 00:15:06,143 --> 00:15:08,058 is walking in Moundsville State Prison 224 00:15:08,189 --> 00:15:10,582 in West Virginia, big gray stone place. 225 00:15:12,323 --> 00:15:14,412 And I come to visit my mom, she was 226 00:15:14,543 --> 00:15:17,938 doin' time there for strong arm robbery. 227 00:15:20,114 --> 00:15:21,680 - The prison in Moundsville 228 00:15:23,552 --> 00:15:26,555 is one of the most intimidating places possible. 229 00:15:26,685 --> 00:15:29,079 It looks like some old medieval castle. 230 00:15:30,820 --> 00:15:34,258 The walls were between 8 to 12 feet thick. 231 00:15:35,999 --> 00:15:38,480 It was meant to be intimidating. 232 00:15:42,266 --> 00:15:45,443 Every type of prisoner was in Moundsville. 233 00:15:46,967 --> 00:15:49,795 You had the people like Luther and Kathleen 234 00:15:49,926 --> 00:15:52,015 who were there because they were too dumb 235 00:15:52,146 --> 00:15:54,800 to carry out any kind of decent crime 236 00:15:54,931 --> 00:15:57,847 all the way up to the worst kinds of criminals, 237 00:15:57,978 --> 00:15:59,631 multiple murderers, rapists. 238 00:16:01,633 --> 00:16:05,333 The major attraction of the prison were the hangings. 239 00:16:05,463 --> 00:16:07,900 There was standing room only for the hangings. 240 00:16:08,031 --> 00:16:10,991 It was a bleak, horrible place 241 00:16:12,166 --> 00:16:14,211 and not just for the inmates 242 00:16:15,604 --> 00:16:17,823 but for family who would wanna go visit them 243 00:16:17,954 --> 00:16:19,912 because they'd sorta be forced 244 00:16:20,043 --> 00:16:21,827 into narrow little viewing rooms. 245 00:16:21,958 --> 00:16:25,831 When you saw your relative who was an inmate, 246 00:16:25,962 --> 00:16:27,224 you didn't sit across the table, 247 00:16:27,355 --> 00:16:29,400 you could never touch anyone. 248 00:16:29,531 --> 00:16:32,316 There was a thick glass partition 249 00:16:32,447 --> 00:16:35,102 and you had to sit on one side and not move 250 00:16:35,232 --> 00:16:37,800 and the prisoner was on the other side. 251 00:16:37,930 --> 00:16:39,889 So, it was a horrible experience for everyone 252 00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:41,499 and it was meant to be. 253 00:16:45,851 --> 00:16:48,637 There's his mother on the other side of the glass. 254 00:16:48,767 --> 00:16:51,857 He can't touch her, she can't hug him, 255 00:16:51,988 --> 00:16:53,816 and for the entire sentence, 256 00:16:53,946 --> 00:16:56,775 she is never allowed to touch her son. 257 00:16:58,690 --> 00:17:02,564 And Charlie screams and he acts girly and like a sissy 258 00:17:02,694 --> 00:17:06,307 and Uncle Bill is disgusted and drags him off. 259 00:17:06,437 --> 00:17:10,137 But, on a regular basis, never wanting 260 00:17:10,267 --> 00:17:13,096 to go because the place was so awful, 261 00:17:13,227 --> 00:17:14,663 little Charlie Manson would be 262 00:17:14,793 --> 00:17:18,536 taken to see his mother in that prison. 263 00:17:18,667 --> 00:17:20,712 And every time, he had a terrible reaction. 264 00:17:20,843 --> 00:17:23,063 He never got used to it, but then, who would? 265 00:17:24,847 --> 00:17:26,544 - Are there happy memories? 266 00:17:28,372 --> 00:17:29,939 - I don't have that. 267 00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:32,724 - Or sad memories, though, growing up? 268 00:17:32,855 --> 00:17:34,204 - I don't have all that. 269 00:17:36,598 --> 00:17:37,903 - You do have it. 270 00:17:38,034 --> 00:17:38,991 You have an experience, you're an individual, 271 00:17:39,122 --> 00:17:41,211 one human being, with experiences. 272 00:17:43,039 --> 00:17:44,345 - When you leave, go get a big rock 273 00:17:44,475 --> 00:17:46,564 and set it on a table. - Yeah. 274 00:17:46,695 --> 00:17:48,697 - I'm that rock on the table. 275 00:17:48,827 --> 00:17:50,264 - Meaning what? - I don't have 276 00:17:50,394 --> 00:17:52,309 all those things. - But you do have 277 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,050 all those things. - No, no. 278 00:17:54,181 --> 00:17:55,921 You do and you think that I do because you think that 279 00:17:56,052 --> 00:17:58,141 my mind is like your mind, but it isn't. 280 00:17:59,969 --> 00:18:02,319 - I don't think he was evil at the beginning. 281 00:18:02,450 --> 00:18:05,757 I didn't see any signs that Charles would've 282 00:18:05,888 --> 00:18:09,761 turned into the kind of person he ended up. 283 00:18:09,892 --> 00:18:13,417 You know, it's strange what can change your life 284 00:18:15,463 --> 00:18:17,682 because he did have a hard life 285 00:18:19,336 --> 00:18:21,208 as a child 286 00:18:21,338 --> 00:18:24,124 and she wasn't a good mother 287 00:18:25,908 --> 00:18:26,604 and it never got better. 288 00:18:30,782 --> 00:18:32,262 It was never gonna get better. 289 00:18:34,482 --> 00:18:37,137 - Uncle Bill drank too much 290 00:18:37,267 --> 00:18:39,139 and he was very short tempered. 291 00:18:40,575 --> 00:18:43,708 And Charlie was a very disagreeable child. 292 00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:46,407 Wherever he lived, he woulda been a problem 293 00:18:46,537 --> 00:18:50,454 because he whined most of the time, he complained. 294 00:18:50,585 --> 00:18:53,805 He would just fib incessantly about everything. 295 00:18:53,936 --> 00:18:58,288 And the first grade teacher whose class Charlie ended up in 296 00:18:58,419 --> 00:19:00,812 was known as a really mean woman. 297 00:19:00,943 --> 00:19:03,902 Even her own colleagues, the other teachers, 298 00:19:04,033 --> 00:19:06,818 thought she was really rough on the kids. 299 00:19:06,949 --> 00:19:09,560 - I would never want one of my children to be in her class. 300 00:19:09,691 --> 00:19:12,215 I mean, the way she ran her class 301 00:19:13,564 --> 00:19:17,177 was the way you would run a prison. 302 00:19:18,743 --> 00:19:21,398 In her class, you were placed with 303 00:19:21,529 --> 00:19:23,835 what she deemed your intelligence. 304 00:19:25,837 --> 00:19:30,538 So, she would place people together, the dumb-dumbs 305 00:19:30,668 --> 00:19:34,716 and the smart kids and the ones in the middle, 306 00:19:34,846 --> 00:19:37,849 and Charles was placed in the back of the room. 307 00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:40,809 You know, this was so crazy for first graders 308 00:19:40,939 --> 00:19:45,161 because I vision a teacher like I had 309 00:19:45,292 --> 00:19:49,905 who just showed they loved us and this was so crazy. 310 00:19:51,602 --> 00:19:53,778 Didn't anybody ever check on these people? 311 00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:55,693 - On the first day of school, 312 00:19:55,824 --> 00:19:59,610 he came home sobbing saying the teacher 313 00:19:59,741 --> 00:20:02,613 had said such mean things to him. 314 00:20:02,744 --> 00:20:05,181 And very likely, she did. 315 00:20:05,312 --> 00:20:06,748 I talked to other people at McMechen 316 00:20:06,878 --> 00:20:08,967 who had been in her classes and they all agreed 317 00:20:09,098 --> 00:20:12,710 that she was one of those nasty teachers 318 00:20:12,841 --> 00:20:16,497 who couldn't stand little boys in particular. 319 00:20:16,627 --> 00:20:18,890 - And I can understand why he went home crying 320 00:20:19,021 --> 00:20:22,242 because it was really horrible for him. 321 00:20:23,286 --> 00:20:23,895 And 322 00:20:26,202 --> 00:20:28,813 I just think he wasn't given much of a chance. 323 00:20:31,425 --> 00:20:34,384 - Uncle Bill was horrified, 324 00:20:34,515 --> 00:20:38,693 but not that the teacher had been harsh with Charlie. 325 00:20:38,823 --> 00:20:40,999 In those days, it was always assumed 326 00:20:41,130 --> 00:20:44,481 if the teacher got mad at a child, the child deserved it. 327 00:20:44,612 --> 00:20:46,527 What Uncle Bill couldn't stand 328 00:20:46,657 --> 00:20:50,618 was that this five year old boy cried 329 00:20:50,748 --> 00:20:54,448 and acted like a sissy, he acted like a girl. 330 00:20:54,578 --> 00:20:59,322 And Joanne can remember her father coming into her room 331 00:20:59,453 --> 00:21:03,283 and rustling among her clothes and coming out with a dress. 332 00:21:05,894 --> 00:21:10,420 Charlie Manson told all kinds of lies about his childhood. 333 00:21:12,074 --> 00:21:16,078 This story he didn't need to make up or embellish. 334 00:21:16,208 --> 00:21:17,775 This is the one that was bad enough. 335 00:21:17,906 --> 00:21:20,212 Yes, he was sent to school in a dress 336 00:21:20,343 --> 00:21:22,693 as a five year old by his uncle. 337 00:21:28,917 --> 00:21:32,964 All fathers in McMechen were rough on their sons. 338 00:21:34,488 --> 00:21:36,620 Bill wasn't Charlie's father but he 339 00:21:36,751 --> 00:21:39,623 took his responsibility for him very seriously. 340 00:21:41,843 --> 00:21:44,802 Forever after that, Charlie did 341 00:21:44,933 --> 00:21:47,892 just the worst things you could imagine. 342 00:21:48,023 --> 00:21:51,679 And it was almost as though he liked getting in trouble. 343 00:21:54,116 --> 00:21:57,815 The second time I sat down with Joanne to talk, 344 00:21:57,946 --> 00:22:01,819 she said that when Charles was in second grade, 345 00:22:01,950 --> 00:22:04,648 there was a boy in his class he didn't like. 346 00:22:06,607 --> 00:22:09,566 And one day at recess, all the girls 347 00:22:09,697 --> 00:22:13,048 went over as a gang and beat up the boy. 348 00:22:13,178 --> 00:22:16,181 And when they were brought into the principal's office, 349 00:22:16,312 --> 00:22:18,619 they said they did it because 350 00:22:18,749 --> 00:22:21,056 Charles Manson had asked them to. 351 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,582 And Charles said, 352 00:22:27,323 --> 00:22:29,020 "I never touched that boy. 353 00:22:31,545 --> 00:22:34,678 "Those girls were just doing what they wanted to do. 354 00:22:36,767 --> 00:22:39,030 "They oughta be in trouble, not me." 355 00:22:55,873 --> 00:22:56,700 - The Nazarene Church 356 00:22:56,831 --> 00:22:59,050 believes strongly in prayer. 357 00:22:59,181 --> 00:23:02,053 And there was Sunday school for the young people 358 00:23:02,184 --> 00:23:06,188 and the pastor taught the class and Charles came. 359 00:23:06,318 --> 00:23:08,625 - By God and they get saved by the flame. 360 00:23:09,670 --> 00:23:10,801 Thank you, Jesus-- 361 00:23:10,932 --> 00:23:13,674 - Charlie Manson is a sponge. 362 00:23:13,804 --> 00:23:17,329 There is nothing unique about Manson, 363 00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:20,942 any of his philosophies, any of the things he preaches. 364 00:23:21,072 --> 00:23:24,075 What he would do is he would cherry pick lines 365 00:23:24,206 --> 00:23:26,469 that would help him appear to have a philosophy 366 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,906 and it starts with the Bible 367 00:23:29,037 --> 00:23:31,735 that he learns in the Church of the Nazarene. 368 00:23:31,866 --> 00:23:34,738 Manson was taken from the beginning by the teachings 369 00:23:34,869 --> 00:23:37,741 that he heard every day based on the Bible 370 00:23:37,872 --> 00:23:40,657 that women were subservient to men, 371 00:23:40,788 --> 00:23:43,094 that the wife is ruled by the husband. 372 00:23:44,792 --> 00:23:48,273 Yes, Jesus was born of a virgin. 373 00:23:48,404 --> 00:23:52,669 Yes, the devil is here every day in our lives. 374 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,195 And most of all, you better believe the Book of Revelation. 375 00:23:59,067 --> 00:24:03,593 He's hearing this every Sunday, over and over again. 376 00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:08,293 And Charles Manson will never be well educated, 377 00:24:08,424 --> 00:24:11,209 he's never gonna be able to read very well, 378 00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:15,953 but there is a gift that Charlie Manson has from childhood. 379 00:24:17,825 --> 00:24:20,480 He has an incredible memory. 380 00:24:21,872 --> 00:24:24,962 The Bible, song lyrics, everything. 381 00:24:25,093 --> 00:24:28,792 And as an adult, he will be able to quote, 382 00:24:28,923 --> 00:24:31,491 particularly from the Book of Revelation, 383 00:24:32,883 --> 00:24:35,538 and they're word for word perfect. 384 00:24:37,932 --> 00:24:40,369 - I understand when he quotes the Bible 385 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:41,718 where that's coming from. 386 00:24:41,849 --> 00:24:43,764 That's coming from grandma. 387 00:24:43,894 --> 00:24:45,505 I think that's where he gets that. 388 00:24:45,635 --> 00:24:46,897 And he can do it. 389 00:24:47,028 --> 00:24:49,639 - The Bible, the Bible, the Bible 390 00:24:51,032 --> 00:24:53,600 is being pounded into this child's head 391 00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:58,735 and as an adult, he can cherry pick the best phrases, 392 00:24:58,866 --> 00:25:01,651 remember them, and at the appropriate time, 393 00:25:01,782 --> 00:25:04,567 present them almost as his own thoughts. 394 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,746 Young Charlie Manson in McMechen 395 00:25:09,877 --> 00:25:12,749 is remembered mostly for horrible behavior, 396 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,838 but there was always this other part 397 00:25:14,969 --> 00:25:18,755 of Charlie that people would remark on. 398 00:25:18,886 --> 00:25:20,757 His Aunt and Uncle had a beat up 399 00:25:20,888 --> 00:25:23,412 old upright piano in their home 400 00:25:23,543 --> 00:25:26,633 and from the time Charlie is seven, eight years old, 401 00:25:26,763 --> 00:25:30,811 he sits at the piano and tries to pick out tunes on it. 402 00:25:37,644 --> 00:25:41,952 Much more so than the other young kids in McMechen, 403 00:25:42,083 --> 00:25:44,041 he was already picking up on 404 00:25:44,172 --> 00:25:48,002 what passed for the popular music of the day. 405 00:25:48,132 --> 00:25:50,091 - Where did Charlie Manson come from? 406 00:25:50,221 --> 00:25:52,267 What are your earliest memories? 407 00:25:52,397 --> 00:25:54,574 - I come from the heart of Bing Crosby, 408 00:25:56,532 --> 00:25:59,317 Frank Sinatra. - Those were the people that 409 00:25:59,448 --> 00:26:01,885 you listened to as a child? - Yeah. 410 00:26:02,016 --> 00:26:04,845 - He didn't have a wonderful singing voice 411 00:26:04,975 --> 00:26:07,630 but he had a reasonably pleasant one. 412 00:26:07,761 --> 00:26:11,765 He would have to be physically dragged to church on Sundays 413 00:26:11,895 --> 00:26:13,810 but when hymns were sung, he'd brighten up 414 00:26:13,941 --> 00:26:16,204 and he'd try his best to sing. 415 00:26:20,643 --> 00:26:22,776 - He wasn't attentive, I can tell ya he wasn't attentive 416 00:26:22,906 --> 00:26:25,082 in Sunday school, his mind wandered, 417 00:26:25,213 --> 00:26:29,913 I mean, he just wasn't, but he still came. 418 00:26:30,044 --> 00:26:33,830 And Glenna and Bill Thomas were very musical 419 00:26:33,961 --> 00:26:37,094 and Mrs. Maddox, Charles' grandmother, 420 00:26:37,225 --> 00:26:38,835 she also had a great singing voice. 421 00:26:38,966 --> 00:26:40,924 They were all very musical. 422 00:26:41,055 --> 00:26:43,623 - One of Charlie's stated ambitions early 423 00:26:43,753 --> 00:26:46,843 was he wanted to be a singer just like Frankie Lane. 424 00:26:46,974 --> 00:26:49,150 And because he did have, apparently, 425 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,108 some musical and vocal talent, 426 00:26:51,239 --> 00:26:52,632 people thought, "Hm, that might happen." 427 00:27:07,951 --> 00:27:10,998 The one job nobody at Moundsville Prison wanted 428 00:27:11,128 --> 00:27:13,304 was to be assigned to the janitorial staff. 429 00:27:14,958 --> 00:27:16,568 There's vomit, there's blood, 430 00:27:16,699 --> 00:27:17,918 there's urine all over the floors. 431 00:27:18,048 --> 00:27:20,877 The janitors were constantly having to clean up. 432 00:27:21,008 --> 00:27:23,880 Kathleen was so determined she wanted to get outta prison 433 00:27:24,011 --> 00:27:25,795 that she did everything she was asked to do 434 00:27:25,926 --> 00:27:27,797 and did them so well, she's paroled 435 00:27:27,928 --> 00:27:29,625 three years into her five year sentence. 436 00:27:34,064 --> 00:27:37,328 And yet, this isn't any kind of fairy tale. 437 00:27:37,459 --> 00:27:42,029 When she gets out of prison, she stays briefly in McMechen. 438 00:27:43,639 --> 00:27:45,902 She's got her little boy back, but there's still 439 00:27:46,033 --> 00:27:48,383 the influence of her mother who she thinks is 440 00:27:48,513 --> 00:27:50,994 just gonna grind her down like she did the first time. 441 00:27:52,996 --> 00:27:56,173 And let's remember: this is now just a 19 to 20 year old. 442 00:27:56,304 --> 00:28:00,134 She still wants to go out and enjoy herself. 443 00:28:00,264 --> 00:28:03,093 And so, they move to other little towns in the area 444 00:28:03,224 --> 00:28:07,445 and Kathleen gets a job as a clerk in a grocery store. 445 00:28:07,576 --> 00:28:10,231 Doesn't make much money, but it's a job. 446 00:28:10,361 --> 00:28:12,929 She's trying to be a good mom, 447 00:28:13,060 --> 00:28:15,932 she's sending her son to school, 448 00:28:16,063 --> 00:28:19,240 except he won't go to school. 449 00:28:19,370 --> 00:28:21,938 She can take him there, walk him to class, 450 00:28:22,069 --> 00:28:23,331 but then she has to go work 451 00:28:23,461 --> 00:28:25,681 and the minute she does, he disappears. 452 00:28:28,162 --> 00:28:30,947 The truant officers are showing up at her door. 453 00:28:31,078 --> 00:28:33,558 "Your son ran away from school again." 454 00:28:33,689 --> 00:28:36,823 Sometimes, to her amazement, he'll show up at 455 00:28:36,953 --> 00:28:41,001 her grocery store while she's working, during the day, 456 00:28:41,131 --> 00:28:44,787 and he will be begging customers for handouts. 457 00:28:46,093 --> 00:28:49,139 It's a sad, sad situation. 458 00:28:49,270 --> 00:28:50,706 - School records in McMechen 459 00:28:50,837 --> 00:28:52,882 show Manson was an average student 460 00:28:53,013 --> 00:28:55,406 in the second, third, and fourth grades. 461 00:28:55,537 --> 00:28:57,800 Then he went to live again with his mother. 462 00:28:57,931 --> 00:28:59,497 In this neighborhood in Indianapolis, 463 00:28:59,628 --> 00:29:01,064 he had his first brush with the law 464 00:29:01,195 --> 00:29:03,675 for stealing a bicycle and then a car. 465 00:29:03,806 --> 00:29:08,506 - Kathleen decides she has to do something. 466 00:29:10,204 --> 00:29:14,512 And so, she takes a very difficult step. 467 00:29:14,643 --> 00:29:18,778 Kathleen had read about the Gibault School for Boys. 468 00:29:18,908 --> 00:29:20,997 This was an open campus, 469 00:29:21,128 --> 00:29:23,217 there weren't prison walls or anything. 470 00:29:23,347 --> 00:29:25,262 You know, it was stricter, but it would be 471 00:29:25,393 --> 00:29:28,613 something where Charlie would have to behave. 472 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:32,835 This was not his mother turning him in to the authorities, 473 00:29:32,966 --> 00:29:34,315 as he would always claim it is. 474 00:29:34,445 --> 00:29:39,059 But unfortunately, this is just the first step 475 00:29:39,189 --> 00:29:42,018 in what's gonna be a series of places 476 00:29:42,149 --> 00:29:45,108 Charlie Manson is going to be placed. 477 00:29:45,239 --> 00:29:49,025 He ran away soon after, came home to mom. 478 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:50,897 "I trust you, you're my mother. 479 00:29:51,027 --> 00:29:52,812 "How can you do this to me?" 480 00:29:52,942 --> 00:29:55,118 To make her feel guilty. 481 00:29:55,249 --> 00:29:58,556 - That always was utmost in my mind, you know, 482 00:29:58,687 --> 00:30:00,297 the fact that he did try to escape there 483 00:30:00,428 --> 00:30:02,212 and his mother would take him right back. 484 00:30:02,343 --> 00:30:05,172 Which had to be so painful. 485 00:30:05,302 --> 00:30:06,956 In my eyes, that's very painful. 486 00:30:07,087 --> 00:30:09,089 I can't imagine it. 487 00:30:09,219 --> 00:30:12,832 And I always felt that just a little bitta help, 488 00:30:12,962 --> 00:30:14,050 a little bitta love mighta made 489 00:30:14,181 --> 00:30:16,574 a big difference in his life. 490 00:30:16,705 --> 00:30:17,924 I really do. 491 00:30:18,054 --> 00:30:19,577 It's cruel. 492 00:30:19,708 --> 00:30:22,667 And I think that was the beginning of the end. 493 00:30:22,798 --> 00:30:26,149 - The things he did, which soon began to 494 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,848 involve first petty theft, then he would 495 00:30:28,978 --> 00:30:31,154 break away and go into armed theft. 496 00:30:31,285 --> 00:30:34,070 He went to a series of different places, 497 00:30:34,201 --> 00:30:37,552 more and more up the ladder, so to speak, 498 00:30:37,682 --> 00:30:39,119 into full time detention. 499 00:30:39,249 --> 00:30:42,862 He was once lucky enough to get sent to Boys Town, 500 00:30:42,992 --> 00:30:45,908 convincing a judge in Indianapolis when he was 12 501 00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:47,170 that, "Hey, I'm a Catholic." 502 00:30:47,301 --> 00:30:49,129 Even though he wasn't. 503 00:30:49,259 --> 00:30:51,348 And he's sent to Boys Town, one of 504 00:30:51,479 --> 00:30:54,482 the most famous places in all of America. 505 00:30:54,612 --> 00:30:57,180 There's movies that are being made about this. 506 00:30:58,965 --> 00:31:02,055 He lasts four days and he and some of the other boys 507 00:31:02,185 --> 00:31:04,666 steal a car belonging to a priest and head out. 508 00:31:06,276 --> 00:31:08,235 As with Kathleen, he's very inept 509 00:31:08,365 --> 00:31:09,889 at trying to elude the law. 510 00:31:10,019 --> 00:31:11,325 He's caught, he goes back. 511 00:31:11,455 --> 00:31:14,981 But nothing was ever Charlie's fault 512 00:31:15,111 --> 00:31:17,026 as far as Manson was concerned. 513 00:31:26,731 --> 00:31:27,863 - He was sent to the Indiana Boys School, 514 00:31:27,994 --> 00:31:29,778 the state reform school. 515 00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:31,171 He wouldn't conform to the rules 516 00:31:31,301 --> 00:31:33,347 and was moved from one dormitory to another. 517 00:31:33,477 --> 00:31:37,264 Manson compiled 28 bad conduct reports in two years. 518 00:31:37,394 --> 00:31:41,746 - He was a, as I described him perhaps 20 years ago, 519 00:31:41,877 --> 00:31:44,662 a chronic discipline problem even at that time. 520 00:31:44,793 --> 00:31:47,404 - How was he regarded by the other boys? 521 00:31:47,535 --> 00:31:50,538 - The other students seemed to regard him 522 00:31:50,668 --> 00:31:54,411 as a boy they liked to mingle with. 523 00:31:54,542 --> 00:31:58,198 Manson seemed to have a lot of stories to tell 524 00:31:58,328 --> 00:32:00,765 that was of interest to the other boys. 525 00:32:00,896 --> 00:32:02,245 - The file on Manson at the reform school 526 00:32:02,376 --> 00:32:04,900 shows he escaped five times. 527 00:32:05,031 --> 00:32:07,120 There are letters there from his aunt and grandmother 528 00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:08,773 in which they write of their love for him 529 00:32:08,904 --> 00:32:11,254 and their hopes that he would do better. 530 00:32:11,385 --> 00:32:13,735 - The consensus was he was self-centered, 531 00:32:13,865 --> 00:32:17,086 generally lazy, cooperated only under pressure, 532 00:32:17,217 --> 00:32:19,175 and had little influence on other people 533 00:32:19,306 --> 00:32:21,395 for either good or bad. 534 00:32:21,525 --> 00:32:22,962 - You have said before 535 00:32:24,441 --> 00:32:27,314 that you needed love and you needed family 536 00:32:27,444 --> 00:32:30,360 and you needed friends and that's the one thing 537 00:32:30,491 --> 00:32:33,015 that every man needs. - No. 538 00:32:33,146 --> 00:32:36,018 You misunderstood, I never said anything like that. 539 00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:37,237 - Do you wanna look back 540 00:32:37,367 --> 00:32:40,414 at that early period of your life and say, 541 00:32:40,544 --> 00:32:43,939 "Boy, something went wrong when I went to foster homes 542 00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:44,984 "and then my mother would take me, 543 00:32:45,114 --> 00:32:46,202 "then I'd go see my grandmother, 544 00:32:46,333 --> 00:32:47,682 "then I'd go back and see my mother"? 545 00:32:49,466 --> 00:32:50,641 Did that shape you, did it make a difference? 546 00:32:54,515 --> 00:32:56,908 - Well see, that doesn't even compute in my world 547 00:32:57,039 --> 00:32:58,823 because there is no wrong. 548 00:32:58,954 --> 00:33:00,869 - Do you need to be loved? 549 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,262 - I am loved. - By whom? 550 00:33:02,392 --> 00:33:04,786 - I am love. - You're, are you loved? 551 00:33:04,916 --> 00:33:06,092 - I am love! 552 00:33:07,049 --> 00:33:09,225 - In the tougher reform schools, 553 00:33:10,705 --> 00:33:13,664 it is absolutely true that Charlie Manson, 554 00:33:13,795 --> 00:33:18,234 one of the smaller, weaker boys is certainly picked on, 555 00:33:18,365 --> 00:33:21,194 he certainly suffers physical indignities 556 00:33:21,324 --> 00:33:25,502 and we can be fairly well assured he is sexually assaulted. 557 00:33:27,852 --> 00:33:30,855 Manson recognizes early on 558 00:33:30,986 --> 00:33:33,467 that it's just human nature to back away 559 00:33:33,597 --> 00:33:36,513 from someone who's an absolute lunatic. 560 00:33:36,644 --> 00:33:41,301 He studies, he thinks, and he perfects the act. 561 00:33:41,431 --> 00:33:45,696 If someone bigger, scarier is approaching him, 562 00:33:45,827 --> 00:33:50,614 he will act so insane, so violently out of control that 563 00:33:52,268 --> 00:33:54,792 even the worst bullies will back off and leave him alone. 564 00:33:54,923 --> 00:33:58,840 He calls it being Crazy Charlie and he will 565 00:33:58,970 --> 00:34:02,583 use this again throughout his adult life. 566 00:34:02,713 --> 00:34:05,716 - We all do what we have to do to survive, right? 567 00:34:05,847 --> 00:34:07,762 It's like a long time ago, back in the '50s 568 00:34:07,892 --> 00:34:10,678 when I was in reform school, I would get in a fight 569 00:34:10,808 --> 00:34:12,332 or I'd get in a argument and I'd be down 570 00:34:12,462 --> 00:34:13,855 in solitary confinement and I'd just go 571 00:34:21,428 --> 00:34:24,083 and I turned everything off a long time ago. 572 00:34:24,213 --> 00:34:26,868 - And yet, from these experiences, 573 00:34:28,957 --> 00:34:32,787 Charles doesn't abhor the terrible things done to him. 574 00:34:32,917 --> 00:34:36,095 Rather, he wants to do them to other boys. 575 00:34:38,488 --> 00:34:40,751 In one instance, he's found sodomizing 576 00:34:40,882 --> 00:34:43,711 another younger boy while holding a piece of 577 00:34:43,841 --> 00:34:46,279 broken glass to his throat, threatening to kill him. 578 00:34:49,891 --> 00:34:52,546 When he would be asked about having been raped 579 00:34:52,676 --> 00:34:56,811 as a child in school, Charlie said, 580 00:34:56,941 --> 00:34:57,812 "So what? 581 00:35:00,902 --> 00:35:03,731 "It's just like if it happens, you wipe it off." 582 00:35:13,523 --> 00:35:17,266 Manson finally ended up in a maximum security 583 00:35:17,397 --> 00:35:19,138 detention facility in Chillicothe. 584 00:35:21,488 --> 00:35:25,448 This was the place that kids were sent 585 00:35:25,579 --> 00:35:28,886 when they were so bad there was no other place 586 00:35:29,017 --> 00:35:32,238 for them to go until they turned 21. 587 00:35:34,153 --> 00:35:37,634 There were kids in there who had committed murder already. 588 00:35:40,376 --> 00:35:44,946 What he did is completely unparalleled 589 00:35:45,076 --> 00:35:46,469 in the rest of his life. 590 00:35:48,558 --> 00:35:53,346 This time, for months, he is the model inmate. 591 00:35:54,651 --> 00:35:56,262 Follows every rule, tries hard in school. 592 00:35:57,959 --> 00:36:01,484 And there's the innate belief that every once in awhile, 593 00:36:01,615 --> 00:36:06,010 there has to be some kid that we've really helped. 594 00:36:06,141 --> 00:36:07,751 Maybe this is a success story. 595 00:36:07,882 --> 00:36:12,408 And at this facility, there was the honor award 596 00:36:12,539 --> 00:36:14,845 that you have completely overcome 597 00:36:14,976 --> 00:36:18,240 all the terrible things that brought you here. 598 00:36:18,371 --> 00:36:19,546 And it wasn't given out often, 599 00:36:21,112 --> 00:36:24,507 but it was given out to Charles Milles Manson. 600 00:36:25,508 --> 00:36:27,684 Charlie had conned the people 601 00:36:27,815 --> 00:36:30,296 who were certain no kid could ever fool them. 602 00:36:31,775 --> 00:36:35,649 And so, miraculously, there it is, 603 00:36:35,779 --> 00:36:38,826 Charlie Manson has completely turned a new leaf 604 00:36:38,956 --> 00:36:40,828 and he's gonna be a model citizen. 605 00:36:40,958 --> 00:36:42,656 - When he was released, 606 00:36:42,786 --> 00:36:44,614 he went back to McMechen, worked at a few odd jobs, 607 00:36:44,745 --> 00:36:46,703 and a few months later, he was married here 608 00:36:46,834 --> 00:36:50,185 and they moved into a house across the street. 609 00:36:54,798 --> 00:36:56,974 - Well, a lot of people didn't know 610 00:36:57,105 --> 00:36:58,715 Charlie Manson even lived around here. 611 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,590 You know, they, he was virtually friendless. 612 00:37:05,113 --> 00:37:09,160 He was sorta the, the type of person, 613 00:37:09,291 --> 00:37:10,510 was like a school kid who wore 614 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,686 a raincoat to school on a sunny day. 615 00:37:12,816 --> 00:37:17,038 I mean, he just, no one jumped to be around him. 616 00:37:17,168 --> 00:37:18,257 He was very low key. 617 00:37:19,258 --> 00:37:21,521 - He wasn't outgoing, no, 618 00:37:21,651 --> 00:37:24,959 and no one seemed to make an effort to 619 00:37:25,089 --> 00:37:29,572 seek Charles out or introduce themselves. 620 00:37:29,703 --> 00:37:32,662 He was a, a kind of a cocky, 621 00:37:32,793 --> 00:37:35,099 let's start a fight type of guy 622 00:37:35,230 --> 00:37:39,843 and a blowhard and that kind of a person. 623 00:37:39,974 --> 00:37:42,411 I didn't know that side of him. 624 00:37:42,542 --> 00:37:44,674 We enjoyed his company, my cousin Barbara 625 00:37:44,805 --> 00:37:46,589 and I both enjoyed his company and 626 00:37:48,765 --> 00:37:49,418 Charles 627 00:37:50,767 --> 00:37:52,421 might have been a little shy. 628 00:37:53,988 --> 00:37:57,121 And very attractive, had a dimple, 629 00:37:57,252 --> 00:38:00,299 had curly black hair, and he had beautiful eyes. 630 00:38:03,737 --> 00:38:05,869 - 50 years later, people will tell you, 631 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,959 "Well you just know in every town 632 00:38:09,090 --> 00:38:12,746 "there's a good girl who can't resist a bad boy." 633 00:38:12,876 --> 00:38:14,269 - What about your wife? 634 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,009 You were married once, weren't you? 635 00:38:15,139 --> 00:38:16,706 - Yes. - How'd that go? 636 00:38:16,837 --> 00:38:18,142 Why'd you wanna get married? 637 00:38:18,273 --> 00:38:19,709 That's kinda convention, that's kinda normal, 638 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,624 that's kind of in the-- 639 00:38:21,755 --> 00:38:22,625 - Got married 'cause I wanted to 640 00:38:22,756 --> 00:38:23,539 get in that pussy, that's why I got-- 641 00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:24,714 - Oh yeah? - Married. 642 00:38:24,845 --> 00:38:25,715 - Married for sex 643 00:38:25,846 --> 00:38:26,542 was the reason you got married. 644 00:38:26,673 --> 00:38:27,630 - Yeah, that's what, 645 00:38:27,761 --> 00:38:28,936 I didn't know what was happenin'. 646 00:38:29,066 --> 00:38:30,546 I knew there was somethin' happening 647 00:38:30,677 --> 00:38:31,808 but no one would tell me, so I had to find out. 648 00:38:31,939 --> 00:38:32,766 You know, I didn't have books like you guys, 649 00:38:32,896 --> 00:38:33,810 Playboys and stuff, in them days. 650 00:38:33,941 --> 00:38:35,464 Had to find out for myself. 651 00:38:35,595 --> 00:38:38,380 - Charlie's grandmother throws a lovely party 652 00:38:38,511 --> 00:38:40,904 for them, a reception, after the wedding in her house. 653 00:38:41,035 --> 00:38:42,471 We have pictures. 654 00:38:42,602 --> 00:38:45,387 - Rosalie worked at Warsinsky's Grocery. 655 00:38:45,518 --> 00:38:47,650 I thought she was rather quiet 656 00:38:47,781 --> 00:38:52,438 and kinda reserved, not outgoing so much. 657 00:38:52,568 --> 00:38:55,354 I kept it to myself, but I thought 658 00:38:55,484 --> 00:38:56,746 she was very attractive and 659 00:38:56,877 --> 00:38:59,793 I wouldn't mind having her for a girlfriend. 660 00:38:59,923 --> 00:39:04,406 She was very pleasant, cordial, a very nice person. 661 00:39:04,537 --> 00:39:09,106 I had seen her across the street standin' with Charlie 662 00:39:09,237 --> 00:39:12,762 and that kinda bursted my bubble a little bit 663 00:39:12,893 --> 00:39:15,896 because I thought he was relatively quiet 664 00:39:16,026 --> 00:39:19,856 and if you asked him a question, you didn't expect 665 00:39:19,987 --> 00:39:22,598 to get much more than a yes or no answer. 666 00:39:22,729 --> 00:39:27,429 But he just seemed to come in and sweep Rosalie off her feet 667 00:39:29,083 --> 00:39:32,478 and that's the last I heard of Rosalie at the store. 668 00:39:32,608 --> 00:39:34,871 - The reception was at Glenna's home 669 00:39:35,002 --> 00:39:37,831 and my mother, dad, and I went there for the reception. 670 00:39:37,961 --> 00:39:41,225 It was small but it was a nice time. 671 00:39:41,356 --> 00:39:43,140 But the one thing that I noticed that night: 672 00:39:43,271 --> 00:39:46,579 I have never seen him that happy in my life. 673 00:39:48,015 --> 00:39:50,539 - For married couples, the way you 674 00:39:50,670 --> 00:39:52,498 passed the time of day in the evening 675 00:39:52,628 --> 00:39:54,456 was to sit out on the front stoop 676 00:39:54,587 --> 00:39:56,240 and as your neighbors walked by, 677 00:39:56,371 --> 00:39:59,069 you'd chat and you'd pass the time of day. 678 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,594 And suddenly, there's Charlie Manson trying to do this. 679 00:40:04,423 --> 00:40:05,728 - I first met Charlie Manson, 680 00:40:05,859 --> 00:40:08,427 my first experience, personal experience, was 681 00:40:09,819 --> 00:40:11,908 I was on my way to baseball practice 682 00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:14,998 and the coach's wife asked Charlie to drive us 683 00:40:15,129 --> 00:40:17,740 down to the ball field, so we climbed into 684 00:40:17,871 --> 00:40:20,787 the back seat of his Freddie Flintstone car. 685 00:40:20,917 --> 00:40:23,006 He took us to the game, didn't say a word, 686 00:40:23,137 --> 00:40:25,444 and when we got out, we thanked him 687 00:40:25,574 --> 00:40:29,360 and he just looked straight ahead and continued on. 688 00:40:29,491 --> 00:40:31,493 He said nothing, just drove off. 689 00:40:31,624 --> 00:40:32,581 That was Charlie. 690 00:40:34,757 --> 00:40:39,545 - And it only lasts a few months, then Rosalie's pregnant. 691 00:40:40,589 --> 00:40:41,721 And there's medical bills. 692 00:40:41,851 --> 00:40:44,332 And Charlie gets a second job helpin' out 693 00:40:44,463 --> 00:40:47,727 at a local store but there's still not enough money. 694 00:40:47,857 --> 00:40:50,686 And Charlie starts stealin' cars. 695 00:40:52,775 --> 00:40:57,476 And he subsidizes for a few months, but it's not workin'. 696 00:40:58,868 --> 00:41:00,870 Kathleen, with her husband Lewis, 697 00:41:01,001 --> 00:41:02,698 has moved out to California. 698 00:41:04,091 --> 00:41:06,789 And so, Charlie suggests to Rosalie 699 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,705 they go out there, it'll be better there. 700 00:41:12,012 --> 00:41:15,624 And so, he leaves McMechen with a pregnant child bride 701 00:41:15,755 --> 00:41:18,888 in a car he stole to go to California 702 00:41:19,019 --> 00:41:22,109 where he is sure he will somehow become a huge success. 703 00:41:23,850 --> 00:41:24,894 - See, my old lady, she said, 704 00:41:25,025 --> 00:41:26,809 "Let's steal a car and go to California." 705 00:41:28,115 --> 00:41:29,856 And I said, "Man, I ain't gonna steal no car 706 00:41:29,986 --> 00:41:31,553 "and go to California and go back to jail." 707 00:41:31,684 --> 00:41:33,468 She says, "We won't get caught." 708 00:41:35,775 --> 00:41:37,646 We didn't get caught, just I got caught. 709 00:41:39,909 --> 00:41:41,998 - You had a son by that marriage, didn't you? 710 00:41:44,784 --> 00:41:46,655 - Yeah, I got a kid somewhere. 711 00:41:46,786 --> 00:41:47,613 - You think about him? 712 00:41:49,789 --> 00:41:51,486 - About as much as my father did me. 713 00:41:54,968 --> 00:41:56,360 - Manson's wife had a baby 714 00:41:56,491 --> 00:41:57,884 but before it was born, he was in trouble 715 00:41:58,014 --> 00:41:59,755 with the law again, arrested for 716 00:41:59,886 --> 00:42:02,192 driving a stolen car to California. 717 00:42:02,323 --> 00:42:05,021 - As was his mother, he is one of the most 718 00:42:05,152 --> 00:42:08,895 incompetent criminals that ever stole stuff 719 00:42:09,025 --> 00:42:11,201 in the history of the United States of America. 720 00:42:12,812 --> 00:42:15,031 He steals a car to get to Los Angeles 721 00:42:15,162 --> 00:42:16,816 but instead of ditching the car, he starts 722 00:42:16,946 --> 00:42:21,211 driving around LA, seeing the sights. 723 00:42:21,342 --> 00:42:24,475 These are in the days when cops will mark down 724 00:42:24,606 --> 00:42:27,870 out of state license plates and just run casual checks. 725 00:42:28,001 --> 00:42:29,393 - These observations can give 726 00:42:29,524 --> 00:42:32,396 a definite indication that the vehicle may be stolen, 727 00:42:32,527 --> 00:42:34,747 even before a thorough inspection is made 728 00:42:34,877 --> 00:42:35,748 or the subject's questioned. 729 00:42:37,576 --> 00:42:40,230 - And, of course, the car comes back as stolen. 730 00:42:40,361 --> 00:42:44,060 That starts Charlie's downfall, legally. 731 00:42:44,191 --> 00:42:48,021 He would do these extra things that he didn't have to do 732 00:42:48,151 --> 00:42:50,719 and I have talked to psychologists 733 00:42:50,850 --> 00:42:53,156 who study criminal behavior and they will say to me, 734 00:42:53,287 --> 00:42:56,551 "This is proof that, deep down, 735 00:42:56,682 --> 00:43:00,250 "he always wanted to be in prison, he felt safe there, 736 00:43:00,381 --> 00:43:03,906 "he's subconsciously doing these dumb things 737 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,997 "just so he will get back to where he really feels secure." 738 00:43:08,128 --> 00:43:10,783 ♪ Ho ho ho ho get on home 739 00:43:11,827 --> 00:43:14,787 ♪ Oh ho ho ho ho get on home 740 00:43:16,702 --> 00:43:17,746 - I got it. 741 00:43:19,182 --> 00:43:19,835 - Tell me, for instance, 742 00:43:19,966 --> 00:43:22,011 what did you guys do for sex? 743 00:43:22,142 --> 00:43:25,711 - Well, there is young boys around 744 00:43:25,841 --> 00:43:28,931 and you can always give 'em a few 745 00:43:29,062 --> 00:43:30,803 packs of cigarettes to do what you want. 746 00:43:32,848 --> 00:43:34,633 - How do you do that after you're locked down? 747 00:43:34,763 --> 00:43:36,156 - Well, you can shower time or 748 00:43:38,637 --> 00:43:39,986 when they have a yard night or something, 749 00:43:40,116 --> 00:43:42,858 there's places around here you can go to, of course. 750 00:43:42,989 --> 00:43:44,643 They call 'em spots, yeah. 751 00:43:45,861 --> 00:43:46,688 Things like that. 752 00:43:46,819 --> 00:43:48,124 It's no problem, old man. 753 00:43:51,693 --> 00:43:56,263 - Charlie Manson's life and the terrible crimes he committed 754 00:43:56,393 --> 00:43:58,787 all happened because he's the wrong man 755 00:43:58,918 --> 00:44:00,789 in the right place at the right time. 756 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,923 And nowhere is this more true than when 757 00:44:04,053 --> 00:44:06,708 he is first sent to prison at Terminal Island. 758 00:44:10,538 --> 00:44:13,976 The last few years before Charles Manson 759 00:44:14,107 --> 00:44:18,111 enters the adult criminal system for the first time, 760 00:44:18,241 --> 00:44:22,071 the philosophy of the American criminal system changes. 761 00:44:26,206 --> 00:44:27,990 - What are prisons for? 762 00:44:28,121 --> 00:44:29,992 When you think about it, there are just a limited 763 00:44:30,123 --> 00:44:32,125 number of things a penal system can be asked to do. 764 00:44:32,255 --> 00:44:33,953 In the first place, it can be asked 765 00:44:34,083 --> 00:44:36,303 to punish those who break the rules. 766 00:44:36,433 --> 00:44:38,261 But most civilized societies have not 767 00:44:38,392 --> 00:44:40,307 been content with the punishment. 768 00:44:40,437 --> 00:44:42,309 They want the punishment to have a purpose. 769 00:44:49,664 --> 00:44:52,014 - You're in prison. 770 00:44:52,145 --> 00:44:53,276 And maybe one of the reasons you are here 771 00:44:53,407 --> 00:44:55,061 is that there was no place for you 772 00:44:55,191 --> 00:44:57,367 in a society demanding skills and education. 773 00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:01,850 California spends more than any other state 774 00:45:01,981 --> 00:45:04,374 on educating and training prisoners. 775 00:45:04,505 --> 00:45:05,898 If you don't have a high school education, 776 00:45:06,028 --> 00:45:09,031 you're encouraged to get one and you can learn a trade. 777 00:45:09,162 --> 00:45:11,991 - Now we have a whole new philosophy. 778 00:45:12,121 --> 00:45:14,036 We've gotta work with these people 779 00:45:14,167 --> 00:45:16,125 so that they won't have to turn to crime, 780 00:45:16,256 --> 00:45:18,171 so they'll have skills that will 781 00:45:18,301 --> 00:45:20,913 let them function in the regular world. 782 00:45:21,043 --> 00:45:23,654 - You in California here are so fortunate 783 00:45:23,785 --> 00:45:26,048 that you don't quite realize that 784 00:45:26,179 --> 00:45:29,748 40-odd other states are far behind you 785 00:45:31,358 --> 00:45:34,187 and that the jails and prisons in most of these states 786 00:45:34,317 --> 00:45:37,843 are filthy and dehumanizing machinery, 787 00:45:39,105 --> 00:45:41,237 that they ruin the people that go into them 788 00:45:41,368 --> 00:45:44,284 and that they harm all the people outside 789 00:45:44,414 --> 00:45:47,591 who think that the machine is doing something constructive 790 00:45:47,722 --> 00:45:50,290 to the individual who is ground up in it. 791 00:45:50,420 --> 00:45:52,945 - So, Charlie goes to prison where, a couple years before, 792 00:45:53,075 --> 00:45:56,905 it woulda been like his mother's experience in Moundsville 793 00:45:57,036 --> 00:45:58,428 where the foot's in the back of your neck 794 00:45:58,559 --> 00:46:00,474 and you will do what you're told or else. 795 00:46:00,604 --> 00:46:04,565 Now we're going to help you grow as a person. 796 00:46:04,695 --> 00:46:08,221 And one of the ways American prisons did this: 797 00:46:08,351 --> 00:46:10,963 Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People 798 00:46:11,093 --> 00:46:14,618 is sweeping the nation. - Hello, everybody. 799 00:46:14,749 --> 00:46:16,229 You know the happiness you get out of life 800 00:46:16,359 --> 00:46:19,014 and, to a large extent, the size of your income 801 00:46:19,145 --> 00:46:21,234 will depend very largely upon your ability 802 00:46:21,364 --> 00:46:24,106 to win friends and influence people. 803 00:46:24,237 --> 00:46:28,676 - Dale Carnegie is a salesman who was brilliant 804 00:46:28,807 --> 00:46:32,332 at putting together the kinda tips he learned on the road 805 00:46:32,462 --> 00:46:35,770 that would help you if you wanted to sell people something, 806 00:46:35,901 --> 00:46:37,337 if you wanted people to like you, 807 00:46:37,467 --> 00:46:40,122 little tricks you could play. 808 00:46:41,689 --> 00:46:44,300 And there's courses you would sign up for 809 00:46:44,431 --> 00:46:48,000 and all the prisoners at Terminal Island in California, 810 00:46:48,130 --> 00:46:50,263 boy, they wanna get in on this. 811 00:46:51,830 --> 00:46:53,092 - Be sincere. 812 00:46:53,222 --> 00:46:54,789 You will just be wasting your time 813 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,052 if you pretend to be interested in other people 814 00:46:57,183 --> 00:46:58,662 in order to get something out of them. 815 00:46:58,793 --> 00:47:00,012 - Sincerity is the best gimmick, remember that. 816 00:47:00,142 --> 00:47:01,361 "Sincerity and honesty," he said, 817 00:47:01,491 --> 00:47:03,015 "It'll trick 'em every time." 818 00:47:03,145 --> 00:47:04,843 I said, "Well, sincere and honesty, 819 00:47:04,973 --> 00:47:06,366 "I never tried that." 820 00:47:06,496 --> 00:47:08,020 - A good smile has 821 00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:10,022 the same effect as a puppy's tail. 822 00:47:10,152 --> 00:47:12,851 When a puppy wags his tail, he says, "I'm glad to see you." 823 00:47:12,981 --> 00:47:15,201 And a smile says the same thing. 824 00:47:17,246 --> 00:47:20,075 - Charlie eats up the Dale Carnegie course. 825 00:47:20,206 --> 00:47:22,861 - Charlie was takin' the course, 826 00:47:22,991 --> 00:47:25,951 Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. 827 00:47:26,081 --> 00:47:27,691 Very strange. 828 00:47:27,822 --> 00:47:30,259 - And within four small months after signing up 829 00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:33,219 for the Dale Carnegie course, I received a promotion 830 00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:36,178 and 12 months after that, I was promoted to 831 00:47:36,309 --> 00:47:39,007 zone sales manager of the Burroughs Corporation. 832 00:47:39,138 --> 00:47:41,140 - So, I mean, that's probably where he got 833 00:47:41,270 --> 00:47:43,925 a lot of his ideas that he transformed 'em into 834 00:47:44,056 --> 00:47:48,625 his own way of applying what he had learned in that course. 835 00:47:50,497 --> 00:47:53,152 - Now, this is the guy who supposedly can hardly read. 836 00:47:53,282 --> 00:47:55,806 But his retention, when he wants to 837 00:47:55,937 --> 00:47:57,678 remember something, is perfect. 838 00:47:57,808 --> 00:47:59,985 Charlie, in particular, has a couple 839 00:48:00,115 --> 00:48:02,378 special things that resonate with him. 840 00:48:04,076 --> 00:48:07,775 But he doesn't complete the course because he felt like 841 00:48:07,906 --> 00:48:10,909 he had learned what there was for him to learn. 842 00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:12,867 The first is: the best way to avoid 843 00:48:12,998 --> 00:48:15,739 an argument is not to get into one. 844 00:48:15,870 --> 00:48:18,568 - I was walkin' in the yard and there was 845 00:48:18,699 --> 00:48:22,181 this guy playin' a guitar and a cop came by and said, 846 00:48:22,311 --> 00:48:24,139 "Manson, you can't play your guitar here. 847 00:48:24,270 --> 00:48:26,141 "You gotta play your guitar over there." 848 00:48:26,272 --> 00:48:27,969 And Charlie just kept playin' his guitar 849 00:48:28,100 --> 00:48:29,231 and the cop just stopped and said, 850 00:48:29,362 --> 00:48:32,017 "Manson, you ain't never gonna get outta here." 851 00:48:32,147 --> 00:48:33,322 Charlie never missed a beat. 852 00:48:33,453 --> 00:48:35,063 He said, "Outta where, man?" 853 00:48:35,194 --> 00:48:36,804 And just kept goin'. 854 00:48:36,935 --> 00:48:40,503 And that was it, that was my first day with Charles Manson. 855 00:48:40,634 --> 00:48:43,071 - That's the first thing, don't give 'em anything 856 00:48:43,202 --> 00:48:46,945 to tear into, and most importantly, 857 00:48:47,075 --> 00:48:51,688 always let the other fellow think that the idea is his. 858 00:48:51,819 --> 00:48:54,126 - Charlie directed mental traffic. 859 00:48:54,256 --> 00:48:57,390 He wanted to do something and he'd jump ahead to one of 860 00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,002 the girls and one of the girls'd say, "I got a good idea." 861 00:49:01,133 --> 00:49:03,135 Charlie had planted a seed. 862 00:49:03,265 --> 00:49:05,876 And off they went, doing his way. 863 00:49:06,007 --> 00:49:10,098 - Manson's incredible powers 864 00:49:10,229 --> 00:49:12,231 that you hear people talk about all the time, 865 00:49:12,361 --> 00:49:15,190 the charisma, the ability not only 866 00:49:15,321 --> 00:49:18,802 to read minds but make people trust him, 867 00:49:18,933 --> 00:49:20,456 straight outta Dale Carnegie's 868 00:49:20,587 --> 00:49:22,937 How to Win Friends and Influence People. 869 00:49:23,068 --> 00:49:25,113 Word for word. 870 00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:33,556 Manson, when he gets outta Terminal Island, 871 00:49:33,687 --> 00:49:37,299 has a new career goal: he's gonna be a world class pimp. 872 00:49:38,997 --> 00:49:42,043 He liked listening to the pimps at Terminal Island, 873 00:49:42,174 --> 00:49:44,698 they gave him advice on how to find the right girls. 874 00:49:46,482 --> 00:49:48,832 The rules are simple: you wanna find young women 875 00:49:48,963 --> 00:49:51,009 who are bent but not broken, 876 00:49:51,139 --> 00:49:53,707 emotionally distraught but not completely unhinged. 877 00:49:55,143 --> 00:49:57,145 The second thing you have to do 878 00:49:57,276 --> 00:50:00,670 is you have to make them depend on you. 879 00:50:00,801 --> 00:50:05,066 You control every aspect of their lives. 880 00:50:05,197 --> 00:50:09,114 The third thing is you keep them from outside influences. 881 00:50:09,244 --> 00:50:10,941 Don't let them talk to family, 882 00:50:11,072 --> 00:50:12,508 don't let them talk to friends. 883 00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:15,859 You must be the only person they have to turn to. 884 00:50:19,994 --> 00:50:22,649 Charlie did not realize that the biggest challenge 885 00:50:22,779 --> 00:50:26,392 is not to recruit girls who will work for you 886 00:50:26,522 --> 00:50:30,265 but to recruit women who would stay working for you. 887 00:50:30,396 --> 00:50:32,354 And he never had a string of women who could 888 00:50:32,485 --> 00:50:35,575 earn enough money to support him the way he wanted. 889 00:50:35,705 --> 00:50:38,230 He had to try to subsidize himself in other ways 890 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,014 that just got him into further legal trouble. 891 00:50:40,145 --> 00:50:41,885 He was a terrible pimp. 892 00:50:42,016 --> 00:50:44,627 And soon ends up in jail again, this time at 893 00:50:44,758 --> 00:50:49,415 McNeil Island up near Seattle in Washington. 894 00:50:51,504 --> 00:50:54,550 In McNeil Island, Manson is once again 895 00:50:55,812 --> 00:50:57,684 together with the worst of the worst. 896 00:50:59,990 --> 00:51:02,689 The trait that continues to distinguish him 897 00:51:02,819 --> 00:51:05,126 from other prisoners is the fact that 898 00:51:05,257 --> 00:51:07,824 he is so honestly interested in music. 899 00:51:07,955 --> 00:51:12,742 In one of the great ironies in American Criminal History, 900 00:51:12,873 --> 00:51:17,486 Alvin Creepy Karpis, one of the real serious killers 901 00:51:17,617 --> 00:51:20,228 from the Bonny and Clyde, Dillinger days, 902 00:51:20,359 --> 00:51:22,796 is also incarcerated in McNeil Island 903 00:51:22,926 --> 00:51:24,711 and he plays steel guitar. 904 00:51:24,841 --> 00:51:27,540 And Charlie sucks up to Creepy Karpis 905 00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:30,934 and gets guitar lessons from him. 906 00:51:31,065 --> 00:51:34,851 Karpis, later, when Manson becomes so infamous, 907 00:51:34,982 --> 00:51:37,027 tells an interviewer, "Boy, 908 00:51:37,158 --> 00:51:38,986 "I didn't know he had that in him." 909 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:47,734 In McNeil, a couple other critical things 910 00:51:47,864 --> 00:51:50,432 happen in Manson's development as 911 00:51:50,563 --> 00:51:53,783 what we have to call a genius con artist. 912 00:51:53,914 --> 00:51:56,960 There are, obviously, in all these prisons 913 00:51:57,091 --> 00:52:00,225 all sorts of religious outlets made available 914 00:52:00,355 --> 00:52:02,270 to the prisoners with the belief 915 00:52:02,401 --> 00:52:06,448 that God can change you if man can't. 916 00:52:06,579 --> 00:52:08,711 On one of his reports from McNeil Island, 917 00:52:08,842 --> 00:52:10,800 it says that for the first time, 918 00:52:10,931 --> 00:52:14,456 Manson appears to be showing some self awareness 919 00:52:14,587 --> 00:52:17,851 and he credits it to his study of Scientology. 920 00:52:19,983 --> 00:52:24,640 Scientology has managed to sort of pick up a niche 921 00:52:24,771 --> 00:52:27,774 and the prison officials, they may not know 922 00:52:27,904 --> 00:52:29,819 all the details of Scientology but hey, 923 00:52:29,950 --> 00:52:31,908 it's a religion, it's recognized as one, 924 00:52:32,039 --> 00:52:33,823 so it must be good, it's got God in it. 925 00:52:35,738 --> 00:52:40,352 Manson is very interested in the theory in Scientology 926 00:52:42,267 --> 00:52:45,400 that your body is simply a vessel that you're temporarily in 927 00:52:46,749 --> 00:52:49,665 and that greater things are always possible. 928 00:52:49,796 --> 00:52:53,321 You have the opportunity to be this great, glorious being 929 00:52:53,452 --> 00:52:55,584 and you've probably been that before 930 00:52:55,715 --> 00:52:58,544 and it's just a matter of accepting your nature. 931 00:53:00,154 --> 00:53:03,070 He can understand why that would be attractive 932 00:53:03,201 --> 00:53:06,508 and that this would be the kind of psychological tool 933 00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:09,424 he could use to impress particularly 934 00:53:09,555 --> 00:53:11,818 young women with bad self images. 935 00:53:11,948 --> 00:53:13,776 "You may think the situation you're in 936 00:53:13,907 --> 00:53:16,170 "is really awful, but it's not you. 937 00:53:21,958 --> 00:53:24,047 "It's just such a temporary thing 938 00:53:24,178 --> 00:53:26,528 "and I'm gonna teach you how to move beyond it. " 939 00:53:29,662 --> 00:53:31,794 - The seed grows up from the ground. 940 00:53:31,925 --> 00:53:35,581 You go down under the earth to plant somethin' 941 00:53:35,711 --> 00:53:38,714 and you plant these seeds and this garden grows. 942 00:53:40,412 --> 00:53:43,241 It's the same thing with the garden that's in the mind. 943 00:53:43,371 --> 00:53:45,721 - You think you'll ever leave prison? 944 00:53:50,291 --> 00:53:51,292 - Prison? 945 00:53:52,946 --> 00:53:53,729 I got outta jail. 946 00:53:57,603 --> 00:53:58,604 I'm inside of you, man. 947 00:54:00,867 --> 00:54:02,912 I'm inside every one of ya. 948 00:54:04,740 --> 00:54:06,612 Can't you see I'm out, man? 949 00:54:08,396 --> 00:54:09,484 Can't you see I'm out? 950 00:54:09,615 --> 00:54:11,094 Can't you see I'm free? 951 00:54:14,141 --> 00:54:18,841 ♪ Every beat of my eye is just for you ♪ 952 00:54:23,716 --> 00:54:28,068 ♪ And I will love you 'til my life is through ♪ 953 00:54:32,942 --> 00:54:37,599 ♪ Hence the moment you're awake I just wanna cry ♪ 954 00:54:42,604 --> 00:54:47,305 ♪ Hence the moment I will pray you don't say goodbye ♪ 955 00:54:49,611 --> 00:54:54,529 ♪ For I would die 956 00:54:56,836 --> 00:54:59,969 ♪ Every beat of my...